Overall I agree with what the author says, though I have a few further thoughts:
One might argue that writing types are time consuming, and the bugs are not an issue when programmer can cover those cases with automated tests.
These two arguments contradict each other and together are an argument for static typing, not against. Which just shows how weak these arguments are.
but a more powerful type of inference that can actually infer the whole type of a function by analyzing the body of the function.
This bit I am not convinced by. Inferring the API of a function from its body makes it harder to see breaking changes when you refactor the body. It can be useful for internal private helpers, but IMO public APIs should be explicit about their signature.
Functional Programming
I would go one step further here. It should support OOP and procedural paradigms as well. No single programming paradigm is best suited to all problems. Sometimes a mixed approach is best. Any language that heavily leans oneway at the expense of the others limits itself to the problems it can best solve. I do admit the far too many languages lean too much towards OOP at the expense of functional style.
So it is easy to push for a functional style over OOP in new languages. But I would be weary of purely functional language as well.
I don’t understand how types could be time consuming.
Some things are very easy to do in loosly typed languages - just as letting a function take a string or int, and then parsing that string into an int if a string was passed in. In a loosly typed language you can just call something like
if typeof(input)but in a strongly typed language you often need a lot more boiler plate and extra wrapper types to say the function can only take an int or string - for instance in rust you might need to wrap them in a enum first or some how create a trait and implement that for each types.This is quite a bit of extra upfront cost some of the time that really rubs people that are used to loosly typed languages the wrong way. So they think it is slow to work with types. But what they never seem to count is the countless hours you save knowing that when you read a value from something and pass it to a function that wants only an int, that the value is an int and you dont end up getting
2 + "2" = "22"and other suprising bugs in your program. Which results in less time debugging and writing tests for weird cases the compiler does not allow.But all that extra time if often not counted as that is dissociated from the original problem at hand. And they are already used to this cost - people often notice a new cost, but don’t notice a possibly bigger saving else where.
I never understood this argument. If your function is supposed to take an int, then parse your string before calling it?
It can be nice not to have to worry about types when you are doing exploratory programming. For example, I once started by writing a function that did a computation and then returned another function constructed from the result of that computation, and then realized that I’d actually like to attach some metadata to that function. In Python, that is super-easy: you just add a new attribute to the object and you’re done. At some point I wanted to tag it with an attribute that was itself a function, and that was easy as well. Eventually I got to the point where I was tagging it with a zillion functions and realized that I was being silly and replaced it with a proper class with methods. If I’d known in advance that this is where I was going to end up then I would have started with the class, but it was only after messing around that I got a solid notion of what the shape of the thing I was constructing should be, and it helped that I was able to mess around with things in arbitrary ways until I figured out what I really wanted without the language getting in my way at intermediate points.
Just to be clear, I am not saying that this is the only or best way to program, just that there are situations where having this level of flexibility available in the language can be incredibly freeing.
And don’t get me wrong, I also love types for two reasons. First, because they let you create a machine-checked specification of what your code is doing, and the more powerful the type system, the better you can do at capturing important invariants in the types. Second, because powerful type systems enable their own kind of exploratory programming where instead of experimenting with code until it does what you want you instead experiment with the types until they express how you want your program to behave, after which writing the implementation is often very straightforward because it is so heavily constrained by the types (and the compiler will tell you when you screwed up).
With regards to immutability and pure functions, I don’t really care where the language falls on the scale the author defined so long as there is a way to easily express deeply immutable objects and pure functions. There are a ton of benefits of those two things and a lot of optimizations and assumptions that can be made with them. So I don’t really care if everything is immutable by default but just being able to tell the compiler/runtime “Hey listen, this thing won’t change ever, got it? So go crazy with passing it to threads and stuff” or “This function will 100% definitely return the same value if given the same input so if it takes a long time you can cache the result if you’re able to.” both seem very appealing.
Hey listen, this thing won’t change ever, got it? So go crazy with passing it to threads and stuff
I don’t really care about that - none of the code I write is compute bound anyway. The CPU is generally twiddling it’s thumbs idle for millions of cycles with occasional brief moments of activity when the SSD finally responds to the read operation that was requested an eternity ago. Or worse, it might be waiting on a network request.
I want immutability so I can, for example, make a copy of it and know my copy will always be the same as the original. In other words I want to be able to do my own caching/etc (possibly to avoid SSD access).
I want to say Rust, but for some stuff it’s probably very overkill. I love it, but there’s a reason we don’t use CPP for everything. (WASM may change things here but IDK)
Swift would be an excellent candidate for the title of “simpler Rust,” but unfortunately it’s doomed to rot in Apple’s walled garden for all eternity.
Honestly, I would say TS (which I hate, but it’s indispensable for many things) or any JVM/NET language (Kotlin, C#, both are good)
Does it matter if it is overkill as long as it doesn’t slow you down too much.
I love it
Is a great reason to learn and use a language
which I hate
Is a great reason to avoid using it.
If you don’t enjoy the tools you use them you are going to be far less motivated to work on things. Which will kill off a lot of projects.
There are something that TS is better at, but there are also a lot of things that rust is better at. Each languages haves different strengths and weaknesses. IMO both rust and TS are both fine general purpose languages to learn. Personally I would pick rust for most things though and would definitely favour it if I could only learn one language.
Python is basically (IMO) C/C++ made easy.
Billions of libraries, works on even obscure hardware, simple syntax, no compiling(it’s behinde the scene and just like always works) or linking etc. etc. etc.
Edit: this implies that C/C++ is the best language ever of course. Let the flame wars begin!
I very much disagree. In Python almost everything is abstracted away from you and it’s dynamically and weakly typed. It’s also interpreted.
Compare that to C which is literally one step above assembly, strongly and statically typed, as well as compiled.
They’ve got completely different use cases and have almost no overlap imo.
Agree except Python is strongly typed.
In what way? Python has type hinting, but it’s purely for linting and is not enforced at runtime. Python has always had dynamic duck typing.
Hi there! Looks like you linked to a Lemmy community using an URL instead of its name, which doesn’t work well for people on different instances. Try fixing it like this: !programming@lemmy.world/u/theherk) [@programming](https://programming.dev
And yet I wouldn’t touch C nowadays if I can avoid it anyhow. Zig (simple low level) and Rust (where e.g. C++ would be used, and for large higher level projects, as it really composes nicely) are IMHO the way modern systems programming is done
That’s fine, but there are still plenty of use cases where you’d have to use C instead of anything else. I agree though, Rust is a better language than the monstrosity that is C++.
Starting a new personal project is different from what the industry requires. If you’re working on integrated systems, guess which language you’ll likely have to work with?
It’s kind of like Typescript vs Javascript. There’s zero reason to start a new project with Javascript, but there’s still plenty of projects out there that use it.
Well depending on the “depth” of the stack Rust is probably the first choice by now for new projects in “the” industry (speaking of experience, a lot of companies are evaluating this choice now).
Have you tried Zig instead for low level stuff? It’s a little bit simpler AFAIK and probably a good choice when the project doesn’t get too big (in which case I would prefer Rust because of its safety guarantees). FFI is always an option…
With JSdoc and IDE support I can still understand why one would choose Javascript instead of Typecsript (having worked with both more extensively) and with e.g. https://github.com/tc39/proposal-type-annotations the boundaries will slowly fade. (mainly to avoid a massive stack of bundling and tooling software)
But I would absolutely avoid either honestly if possible Javascript (or the “static” typing Typescript is adding on top) is still not really comparable to a real strict statically typed language (apart from all the weirdness that consists in either). The way I want to program in it (functional, composable, avoiding
this) is unfortunately relatively inefficient… I still don’t get why it was “chosen” as the web language…I don’t use low level languages much anymore, but I’m glad to hear Rust is taking over for new projects (as it should imo) . C++ is a monstrosity of a language that’s overly complicated.
Maybe it’s because it’s the language I learned computer science in, but I feel (maybe hope is a better) that C will stick around. I firmly believe it’s the best tool for students to learn how a computer intuitively works.
As for JS/TS, I only skimmed the github link you sent, but I don’t understand how that’s too different from TS. Seems to be a slightly different way of accomplishing static typing.
Also I mostly do front-end with TS, but what issues do you run into doing functional programming with TS out of curiosity? Never tried to do that
I firmly believe it’s the best tool for students to learn how a computer intuitively works.
Yeah C is certainly a language students should learn (in contrast to C++ IMHO). It’s a dead simple language (well for what it is capable of at least, also to write a compiler for, which is a good academic task) that was very influential and is still here to stay for quite a while (not necessarily directly the language itself, but rather the ABI I think).
how that’s too different from TS
well it’s really baked into the language, no intermediate transpiler or compiler is necessary, and the ecosystem should be a little bit nicer to use (as less bundling is necessary, which I kind of detest after having gone into that rabit hole a little bit too often and “wasted” quite some time with (configuring) it).
functional programming with TS out of curiosity?
It’s not really issues, but I know that something like this:
array.filter(e => <condition>).map(e => <some mapping function>)is concise and reading like how it should be done, but it’s just less efficient than just looping over the array and doing all the things in place (because every time
filterormaporreduceor all the functional niceties is used, a new array is allocated and you want to absolutely avoid allocations if possible). Javascript is a little bit dumb when it comes to allocations (in design itself, something like V8 can’t really help here at least most of the time).In Rust the same is often even more efficient than manually looping over, doing it in place it (probably because of aliasing guarantees). I saw a few interesting posts way back on reddit, that found this out, the (performance) equivalent imperative version was ugly to read. So the default way one would approach the problem in Rust is often also the most efficient, which is obviously very nice to have.
Or another thing I would like to use more often in Java/Typescript is factory functions, something like this:
function createMyObject(param1, param2) { // do something with param1 and param2 // a few functions that could be seen as methods function myMethod() { param1 += 1 + param2; } return Object.freeze({ myMethod, param1 }) }But also here, everytime
createMyObjectis run, all of the stuff/methods inside is allocated again (instead of creating/compiling function references), maybe this can/will be optimized at some time (probably with a transpiler/compiler again, yay -.-).So in general: writing nice (to read) code in Typescript/Javascript often leads to a lot of allocations, and I detest that a language is designed in a way where you want to write nice looking code but you’re punished for it with inefficiency.
I’ve gotta say that was a really good argument and was incredibly well written.
Also very much agree with the compiler comment. Learned a lot from doing that project (twice actually) in college
Wow I pretty much disagree with everything you said haha. E.g. packaging/venv in python is absolute hell compared to something like cargo/crates in Rust. Try to manage a large project in python and you’ll likely revise your answer (if you actually know all the nice alternatives out there…)
In my experience managing a large project comes down to having a consistent process/standards and enough experienced engineers in that language. Remove that and every single language leads to abominations.
I agree, that having a consistent process and good engineers is definitely most important, but a language itself definitely can guide you in the right direction. I think ironically Rust and C++ are good vice versa examples (unrelated to their target area, which happens to be the same (systems programming)), C++ has zillion ways to program in, finding the right and best way is definitely no easy task and requires massive experience in all kinds of paradigms, while Rust generally promotes you to do things in one/the “right” (IMHO) way, otherwise the borrow-checker annoys you all the time.
Cython is a better equilavent as it does compile to C while enabling Python syntax. No one is arguing C or C++ is the best language. I’d even argue a perfect language does not exist. Simple syntax could be argued on a line to line basis, but forced indents is uncomfortable for some, and Julia could be argued to be better in that area. I’m one to hope Julia can take off.
Yeah Julia seems to be just python but better (no GIL if I have understood things correctly).
And lack of forced indentations. Forced indentations gets on my nerves even if I already gotten used to it. These day, all I use Python is small code snip test, and it’s perfect for that as it strips out braces and other things which allows me to focus on a small code. I did used Python for slightly bigger things than that, but only to assist me with other coding languages, and I mainly used it for aiding into G’MIC scripting (Domain-Specific Language that is absolutely wonderful for raster graphics image processing).
Typescript. Runs everywhere. Very active community. It’s the modern day Java.
I don’t know I really hate when jumping to definitions in libraries, I often just land in the “typings” file. I also think that the type-system is often incoherent, has some weird side-effects and often leads to overengineering your typings… I just generally avoid Javascript based languages (which unfortunately is not really possible in frontend…)
Typescript has many shortcomings. About every language does. But it’s an undeniable very strong benefit that you can code the front and backend with it easily. It runs everywhere. It’s reasonably fast, for aws lambdas I found it had really good cold start time. I suspect because node is built on V8 which is highly optimized to get code running asap.
That accessibility and versatility makes it in my opinion the best general purpose language right now.
In backend I’m absolutely happy I can avoid it, there are more solid and more performant languages. I just can’t program in the style I want without loosing massive performance in java/typescript, like in a functional composable style, it results in a mass of allocations, I hate it (because it looks cleaner and is a better architecture IMHO). Rust does a much better job here… I’m also not a huge fan of the type-system, it’s super flexible, but has some incoherence, you tend to overengineer your types, no real ergonomic algebraic data types etc. It also has so many weird design decisions (e.g. prototypal inheritance) I don’t understand and don’t like…
I think Rust comes probably from the other direction, I can soon write my frontend in Rust without having much ergonomic loss (lets be honest, UI frameworks are currently more “solid(js)” in typescript than Rust, but I think that may change in the future…)
Probably should clarify. I think there are better languages in design and safety for backend.
However when it comes to a language you can pick up and crank out code for JS/TS is hard to beat. There’s libraries for everything and if your a full stack dev your probably really familiar with all the ends and outs.
If I have time and I want to make a solidly engineered product Rust is a better option. But often I’m pressed for time and TS can make a solid enough and performant enough product.
Do you have equivalent experience in both? I consider myself being faster in Rust nowadays than in Typescript (most likely because of the good tooling and the nice composable way the language is built.) But it probably depends on the type of the task I guess (e.g. if good libraries are available). But this stands obviously only in backend, writing UI as fast as with React or Solidjs or Svelte or vue or whatever (damn there are just too many frontend frameworks…) is certainly faster in Typescript.
Nah not equivalent. I’ve worked on rust for side projects and a few lower level networking things. Hard to get equivalent experience because my regular job is probably 60% frontend webapps.
Typescript being everywhere with strong libraries for even brand new tech is why I think it’s a great general purpose language. Whatever new product I’m integrating with always has a JS or TS library.
You don’t have to convince me Rust is a better language in so far as what it provides the programmer to make a working and correct program but I’d argue it’s not the best general purpose yet for many reasons that go beyond the design of the language and engineering. Such as availability, clients who pay me for code, and third party libraries
my opinion is a good language needs these qualities. Portable, Safe, Fast, Easy.
which seems to be similar to the author of the article. the language I have found to match the criteria the most is the D programming Language, its so mediocre in every area.
3 separate compilers, gcc llvm and mars backends. can be as safe as you want it to be, with constructs for purity, GC, and contracts built in. can be as fast as you want it to be it is a systems language and gives you all the necessary tools to go down to C level or below with a good in line assembly, but generally the idiomatic code is fast enough you dont need to go to the C level.
it is also very easy, you have a lot of C libraries and D libraries you can use and with a built in C compiler (currently beta) you can import C libraries easier, it also has a similar syntax to C so its very easy to rewrite C code in D, it has an optional GC so if you are going for max performance you can beta test algorithms quickly using the GC and when you are ready for max performance you can do it all manually, or you can use the feature to test what is using the GC so you can avoid the GC in loops, I did this in a game recently, I used the GC to setup all memory at the beginning and turned off the GC so I would never use it in a loop,
another nice feature is functional features that make the language cleaner to write. I dont think this approach of being perfectly mediocre is necessarily the best but at least on paper its very good, and in practice there have been companies (specifically Weka Digital) that swear by the approach, they can use one language for both testing out ideas and the final product. but again in a lot of cases you dont want a language that is good at everything you want one that is good for your use case.
also the article was very interesting, language design fascinates me and the article was a good read really enjoyed it. currently planning on learning Haskell and Zig soon should be fun to compare these once I am comfortable with them.
I so wish that D would have taken off :/
I used it at the time of the library split (there was a split in the community regarding the standard library, where Tango was the alternative). The compile time features of D were fantastic and they are still unmatched; as an example: For OpenGL (back then OpenGL 2.x) I could define the vertex attributes and had them checked at compile time when I started to fill the data with glMap! D templates and compile time code generation are on a whole new level, although it made tooling more difficult. If you know constexpr in C++, then this is nothing compared to what D has to offer.
yeah it has a really good blend of features, I think that it could have saved quite a few large companies a lot of money, as well, like facebook who keep re programming stuff, with D they could have used the same language and they would have very rarely re programmed anything, and when they did they would have been able to re use some code. so I am quite surprised it didnt catch on, but it did have a few problems, one being it got relatively popular too quick before it could mature. GC problems, and being too experimental, a very good language is hidden behind a lot of features.
Kotlin
The language itself certainly has a nice appeal, but I just don’t like the JVM and inheritance styled OOP… it’s personal… haha
