Google recently rewrote the firmware for protected virtual machines in its Android Virtualization Framework using the Rust programming language and wants you to do the same, assuming you deal with firmware.

In a write-up on Thursday, Android engineers Ivan Lozano and Dominik Maier dig into the technical details of replacing legacy C and C++ code with Rust.

“You’ll see how easy it is to boost security with drop-in Rust replacements, and we’ll even demonstrate how the Rust toolchain can handle specialized bare-metal targets,” said Lozano and Maier.

Easy is not a term commonly heard with regard to a programming language known for its steep learning curve.

Nor is it easy to get C and C++ developers to see the world with Rust-tinted lenses. Just last week, one of the maintainers of the Rust for Linux project - created to work Rust code into the C-based Linux kernel - stepped down, citing resistance from Linux kernel developers.

“Here’s the thing, you’re not going to force all of us to learn Rust,” said a Linux kernel contributor during a lively discussion earlier this year at a conference.

  • GetOffMyLan@programming.dev
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    27 days ago

    Here’s the thing, you’re not going to force all of us to learn Rust

    That seems like a poor attitude imo.

      • tiredofsametab@fedia.io
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        27 days ago

        I mean, I work as a software engineering and if I’m not doing continuing ed, be it about architecture, storage, or new languages, I’m going to be of less value in the marketplace. I’ve learnt languages I didn’t particularly want to in the past for work (though I generally came to tolerate or even like some of them. Not lua, though; lua can go to hell).

        If Rust truly is the better, safer option, then these people are holding everything back.

        • wewbull@feddit.uk
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          27 days ago

          “learn Rust” in this case is learn it to a level where all of the little behaviour around cross language integrations are understood and security flaws won’t be introduced. Expert level.

          It’s not “I did a pet project over the weekend”.

          • tiredofsametab@fedia.io
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            27 days ago

            You are correct and I am aware of that. However, it also seems that they both refuse to learn it and refuse to work with people at that expert level based on the recent drama, which seems very much like holding things back to me.

            • Strykker@programming.dev
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              26 days ago

              Sure for newcomers to a project like the Linux kernel they have to learn C , because that is what the project is currently written in, but trying to transition the Linux kernel to rust forces people who already are contributing to go and learn rust to be able to continue what they were already doing. And sure you can argue that it’s being done so not everything has to go over at once, but there is a level of rust knowledge required at the interface between the two languages, and that burden is as far as I’ve seen being forced on those long term contributors.

              It’s not the same thing.

              • arendjr@programming.dev
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                26 days ago

                and that burden is as far as I’ve seen being forced on those long term contributors.

                This is not what is happening. The current long term contributors were asked to clarify semantics about C APIs, so the Rust maintainers could take it from there. At no point were the C maintainers asked to help maintain the Rust bindings.

              • FizzyOrange@programming.dev
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                26 days ago

                Sure, but it’s very similar. The point is that those people didn’t get to choose the language they’re using and now someone is forcing them to use a specific language. They’ve always been forced to use a specific language.

                I guess it just think “I don’t want to learn” is a lame excuse.

                • wewbull@feddit.uk
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                  26 days ago

                  How about “To learn it to that level will take 10,000 hours I don’t have”? Does that make more sense to you?

        • stupidcasey@lemmy.world
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          27 days ago

          C/C++ is the bedrock of our modern civilization in some ways more fundamental than actual bedrock, the first step in getting any OS running is making it run C and after that you are basically done, it’s not surprising that developers resist, if nothing else it’s a common language, and standards are hard to change on the best of days. This isn’t just learning a language, it’s a complete paradigm shift.

          • calcopiritus@lemmy.world
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            27 days ago

            The bedrock of modern civilizations is expensive to develop, buggy and unergonomic though.

            If you make C run, you probably (I’m not sure, would have to verify) can make rust run. And if there isn’t yet, there will probably soon be a C compiler written in rust, so you can choose to bootstrap from wherever you prefer.

            C’s ABI will probably last longer than C, since there is not a stable rust ABI though.

              • calcopiritus@lemmy.world
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                26 days ago

                To be fair, in that article mentions the way to get rust from C. Sure, there is not a compiler written in C, but C is down there in the list of compilers needed for rust, so “just” need to compile some other compilers in the middle.

                • BatmanAoD@programming.dev
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                  25 days ago

                  Ah, sorry, I misinterpreted your comment somehow. Yes, Rust is bootstrappable today, it’s just a much longer process than it would be if there were a compiler written in C.

        • orcrist@lemm.ee
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          26 days ago

          It’s not a question of what’s the better option. In reality we have a lot of software that already exists and works, and you can’t replace it all in bulk at the same time. So the question is whether the implementation of Rust makes logistical sense, given the difficulties of maintaining currently existing software while replacing some parts of it.

      • theherk@lemmy.world
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        27 days ago

        Fortunately, they aren’t being asked to do that. All the rust team was requesting was metadata about the call signatures so that they could have a grasp on expected behavior.

      • superkret@feddit.org
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        27 days ago

        It isn’t unreasonable to ask someone to learn a new language, if they currently only speak Sumeric.

    • PlexSheep@infosec.pub
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      26 days ago

      I mean aren’t they forcing everyone else to learn C/C++ otherwise? If we follow that logic, at least

        • lad@programming.dev
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          26 days ago

          That way we’ll just find maintainers went near extinct over time, just like COBOL developers that are as rare as they are expensive. Only Linux kernel isn’t a bank, and maybe will not have as much money to pay to rare developers capable of maintaining C codebase

          • lysdexic@programming.dev
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            24 days ago

            That way we’ll just find maintainers went near extinct over time, just like COBOL developers that are as rare as they are expensive.

            Care to take a shot at figuring out why COBOL is still used today?

            I mean, feel free to waste your time arguing for rewrites in your flavor of the month. That’s how many failed projects start, too, so you can have your shot at proving them wrong.

            But in the meantime you can try to think about the problem, because “rewrite it in Rust” is only reasonable for the types who are completely oblivious to the realities of professional software development.

            • lad@programming.dev
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              23 days ago

              It’s used because the ones who use it have enough money to pay for any problems that may arise from it’s use, and known problems are deemed better than unknown ones.

              It is a viable model when you have enough money and resources, but a conservative one

              • lysdexic@programming.dev
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                23 days ago

                It’s used because the ones who use it have enough money to pay for any problems that may arise from it’s use, (…)

                That’s laughable. Literally the whole world uses it. Are you telling me that everyone in the world just loves to waste money? Unbelievable.

                • lad@programming.dev
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                  23 days ago

                  Have you ever worked at large old corporation? Wasting money is a bit of an underestimation on that scale.

                  Also, not all banks use COBOL, but the ones that don’t are usually much younger.

                  Besides, Ada would’ve been a better example, as it is used by telecoms and seems to be held in high regard, unlike COBOL. The only issue with Ada I heard of is that it’s on par with C++ in complexity which is far from being simple.

      • mke@lemmy.world
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        26 days ago

        I believe that’s incorrect. The reporter who started this rumor either misunderstood the meaning of the chart or was lying through his teeth. I’ll find the original source and share it here later.

        Linux Foundation Report.

        This is the actual source. If you simply scroll through it, you’ll see they’re investing in many things that move the Linux ecosystem forward. Open standards, open hardware, security in the software stack, providing for latest market needs, keeping an eye on legislation that could affect Linux, staying in touch with important entities in the industry, and so on.

        Scroll down near the bottom and you’ll find where the reporter got their information from. It’s an expenditure chart and, sure enough, it says “Linux Kernel Support 2%” Note, however, that it also says:

        • Community Tooling 5%
        • Training and Certifications 7%
        • Project Infrastructure 9%
        • Project Support 64% (!)

        Note that it doesn’t say how any of them is further divided. Remember all the things I mentioned earlier? All of that is value for Linux as a whole.

        Software projects aren’t just about programming the big thing. Working on a large project will show you this. Could the foundation spend more on Linux? Maybe. But saying they only spend 2% on it is disingenuous.

        The reporter doesn’t mention this in his clickbait piece, either because he doesn’t get it in the first place, or more likely because he just wants to push his views.

        This is yet another example why Lunduke isn’t a credible source of news.

    • lysdexic@programming.dev
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      26 days ago

      That seems like a poor attitude imo.

      Why do you believe that forcing something onto everyone around you is justifiable? I mean, if what you’re pushing is half as good as what you’re claiming it to be, wouldn’t you be seeing people lining up to jump on the bandwagon?

      It’s strange how people push tools not based on technical merits and technological traits, but on fads and peer pressure.

      • GetOffMyLan@programming.dev
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        26 days ago

        It is literally being pushed for its technical merits and traits.

        Memory safe code with comparable performance in the kernel seems like an absolute no brainer.

        Also if you watch the video all he’s asking for is consistent interfaces for the file systems. He’s not even trying to get them to use rust. And the guy starts screeching about how he’ll code however he wants.

        Is it wrong to expect a consistent and well documented interface?

        Pretty sure C is actually being pushed against its technical merits here.

        • refalo@programming.dev
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          26 days ago

          It’s wrong to force it. Most choices in history don’t end up with the best one being used. Beta was better than VHS for example. Rust people are very bad at convincing others to try it, and objectively many people just don’t want to or don’t like it for various reasons.

          Personally I highly dislike the syntax. People like familiar things, and to me it’s just too different from C++.

          If anything I think Swift will be an easier sell when the speed and cross-platform issues are solved.

          • zygo_histo_morpheus@programming.dev
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            26 days ago

            I don’t think that everyone has to switch to rust or anything but “I dislike the syntax” and “I only want familiar things” are really bad arguments for not using a language. Try something outside of your comfort zone for a bit, it will help you grow as a programmer.

            • refalo@programming.dev
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              26 days ago

              I have, I still don’t like it and I have tried several times to get used to it and I just can’t. I don’t see any problem in avoiding a language because of its syntax that is painful for me to look at all day.

              Regardless of whether you think those reasons are subjectively bad or not, it is the current reality for many developers.

              • zygo_histo_morpheus@programming.dev
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                26 days ago

                If you’re hobby programming then do whatever you want obviously but if you’re part of some sort of larger project that’s trying to decide between Rust and C++ then subjective aesthetic arguments probably aren’t going to be considered as heavily as technical ones (and rightfully so), which in Rusts case could be that certain classes of bugs are impossible. That’s not to say that it’s not possible to make a technical case for C++ over rust but syntax preferences probably aren’t going to play a large role in how widely used either languages are, which is good.

          • explodicle@sh.itjust.works
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            26 days ago

            Beta was not better than VHS. Anybody could build a competing VHS machine, and it supported feature length films.

            I would go so far as to say that yes most choices do end up with the best one being used, because people like nice things. Programmers just aren’t persuasive people in general, give it time.

          • GetOffMyLan@programming.dev
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            26 days ago

            I think the point is they aren’t forcing it at all. It’s being used with the blessing of Linux Jesus and the others are just throwing their toys out of the pram because they don’t want to learn it.

            Someone else linked the video on this post. They are rude as hell and the rust dev isn’t even asking them to use it.

            Again I think that’s a bad attitude towards technology. Use the best tool for the job and you’d get used to the syntax pretty quickly.

            It’s like someone who started on python not wanting to learn a c style language.

            • PushButton@lemmy.world
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              26 days ago

              Get a Foot in the Door

              It starts with “no, you don’t have to learn it”,

              to “your changes are breaking Rust stuff, let’s waste time together to fix it, else I call it ‘bad attitude’”

              to “you better make your stuff that way if you don’t want to break Rust stuff (and waste your time me)”

              to “do it my way, Rust is taking longer to fix and I would have to refactor all the code because of the lifetime cancer”

              to the original senior kernel dev saying: “fuck it, I quit, the kernel is such a mess with the Rust BS” … People don’t want you at the party, make your own party with your own friends we don’t want you here

              It’s not complicated.

              • GetOffMyLan@programming.dev
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                26 days ago

                I mean I’ve still yet to hear a reason not to use rust tbf.

                But yes that’s what working in a team is like.

                I have to do stuff at work so I don’t fuck over the frontend team. I don’t throw a little tantrum about it.

                • PushButton@lemmy.world
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                  26 days ago

                  Badgering

                  I mean I’ve still yet to hear a reason not to use rust tbf.

                  You can’t take NO as an answer, don’t you?

                  That’s bad attitude

                  Linux is not “work”; you surely don’t grasp the reality of the situation here.

                  And “tbf”, the incessant pushing of Rust from people like you is a perfectly fine reason to not use Rust…

  • 0x0@programming.dev
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    27 days ago

    One of the deep-pocketed founding members of the Rust Foundation says it’s easy. I’m surprised.

      • lysdexic@programming.dev
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        26 days ago

        Clearly Rust is a conspiracy.

        Anyone in software development who was not born yesterday is already well aware of the whole FOMO cycle:

        1. hey there’s a shiny new tool,
        2. it’s so fantastic only morons don’t use it,
        3. oh god what a huge mistake I did,
        4. hey, there’s a shiny new tool,
        • lolcatnip@reddthat.com
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          26 days ago

          Yeah, because the new tools are never actually better, right? If condescending luddites like you had your way we’d still be living in the literal stone age. At every step of the way, people like you have smugly said that the older, more established ways of doing things were good enough and new ways were just a fad that would die out.

          Your favorite language was dismissed as fad when it was new. High level languages were a fad. Computing was a fad. Electricity was a fad. See a pattern?

          Nice job projecting with the “only morons” bit, BTW, when it is in fact you who started off by denigrating people whose preferences are different from yours.

          • lysdexic@programming.dev
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            26 days ago

            Yeah, because the new tools are never actually better, right?

            Well, yes. How many fads have come and went? How many next best things already died off? How many times have we seen the next best thing being replaced by the next best thing?

            And yet, most of the world still runs on the same five languages: C, Java, C++, C#, JavaScript.

            How do you explain that, with so many new tools being so much better than everything?

            Might it be because fanboys tend to inflate their own definition of “actually better”, while turning a blind eye to all the tradeoffs they need to pretend aren’t there?

            • lolcatnip@reddthat.com
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              26 days ago

              I’m old enough to remember when 4 of those 5 languages were the hot new thing. You’d have had me ignore them all and keep using C for everything. If I had done that I wouldn’t have even landed my first job.

              • lysdexic@programming.dev
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                24 days ago

                You’d have had me ignore them all and keep using C for everything.

                Please tell me which language other than C is widely adopted to develop firmware.

                You’re talking about so many up-and-comers during all these decades. Name one language other than C that ever came close to become a standard in firmware and embedded development.

                Right.

    • taanegl@beehaw.org
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      27 days ago

      Your mom is easy… said the deep-pocketed founding member of the Rust Foundation.

  • raker@lemmy.world
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    26 days ago

    2024: Google says replacing C/C++ with Rust is easy

    2025: Google buys Rust

    2026: Google shuts down Rust

  • eronth@lemmy.world
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    26 days ago

    Rust is one of those things that every time I look into it, I don’t really follow what makes it so good. What’s a good starter project to learn the language and get a sense of what makes it worthwhile over the established stuff?

    • FizzyOrange@programming.dev
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      25 days ago
      1. If your alternative is C++ then it removes the enormous burden of manually tracking lifetimes and doing manual memory management. C++ does have RAII which helps with that enormously but even then there are a gazillion footguns that Rust just doesn’t have - especially with the newer stuff like rvalue references, std::move, coroutines etc. It also saves you from C++'s dreaded undefined behaviour which is everywhere.

      2. It has a very strong (and nicely designed) type system which gives an “if it compiles it works” kind of feel, similar to FP languages like Haskell (so they say anyway; I’ve not used it enough to know). The borrow checker strongly pushes you to write code in a style that somehow leads to less buggy code. More compiler errors, but much less debugging and fixing bugs.

      3. The libraries and APIs are generally very well designed and nice to use. If you’ve ever used Dart or Go think how nice the standard library is compared to JavaScript or PHP. It took C++ like 2 decades to get string::starts_with but Rust started with it (and much more!).

      4. Fast by default.

      5. Modern tooling. No project setup hassle.

      6. It’s a value based language, not reference based. References are explicit unlike JavaScript, Java, C#, etc. This is much nicer and makes things like e.g. copying values a lot easier. JavaScript’s answer for ages was “serialise to JSON and back” which is crazy.

      Downsides:

      1. Slow compilation sometimes. I’d say it’s on par with C++ these days.

      2. Async Rust is kind of a mess. They shipped an MVP and it’s still kind of hard to use and has unexpected footguns, which is a shame because sync Rust avoids footguns so well. Avoid async Rust if you can. Unfortunately sometimes you can’t.

      3. Interop with C++ is somewhat painful because Rust doesn’t have move constructors.

      Great language overall. Probably the best at the moment.

      • JustEnoughDucks@feddit.nl
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        25 days ago

        I disagree with 5.

        I am an electronics engineer, so admittedly only ever worked with C and Python scripting (and not a programmer by any means) but I literally stopped learning rust for embedded because every single tooling setup step was wrong or failed for both chips I was testing out (NRF chip and an esp32-C3). Maybe only embedded rust was still a mess tooling-wise, but I have no use case for learning userspace rust first. It would just be a waste of my limited free time 😅

        • milis@programming.dev
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          23 days ago

          I just would like to learn from your experience.

          I have a different background, can’t say I am developer but a coder who mainly do prototyping in short amount of time, and sometimes help out building microservices, backend stuffs. Go really fit the bill neatly for my job, so my first attempt jumping into the embedded world, as a hobbyist, was with TinyGo and found it completely different from userspace application development. To be honest, I did like it as a unified toolchain, but it was not yet that mature the time when I used it (I hope they are much better now) and I always had to go into the “machine” code file to find out things that should be documented better. That said, I was really happy when I got my head around multiplexed led array on the microbit, and even figured out how to drive a continuous rotation servo by timed highs and lows (TinyGo had no PWM support for microbit) for a car crusher, with an empty tissue box of course. Made my little one cry when he saw it the first time and thought his toy cars were crushed.

          But when I got into more “serious” hobbyist realm, playing around with nRF52840, ESP32 and Cortex-M0, I found that Zephyr Project just feel right to me. Maybe because I am not a bare-metal magician by trade, I found the device tree concept so easy to understand and I managed to tune a DTS for ESP-EYE to use the correct address region for PSRAM, though I could only enable 4MB of it as I still couldn’t understand why there are 2 separated address regions for a total 8MB of PSRAM!

          By pure coincidence, IoT became the next big thing for the company I work in, so I am thinking about getting more tools in my shed. I will definitely look into CircuitPython. Never learned Python before because I just don’t like it, without any objective reason I am afraid, but I reckon it is a great tool to build something really really quickly. Another language I want to learn, as you can tell, is Rust, because I can’t expect my colleagues to know Zephyr when FreeRTOS is just a much more popular choice. I think one day I will have to look into FreeRTOS again but wouldn’t hurt learning one more modern langauge that hopefully can do the trick easily.

          However, with some initial digging, it scares me. From libraries and tutorials, one thing that bugs me is that it seems everyone has to do like Peripherals::take().unwrap() and many other long chains of method calls ending with .unwrap(). I feel like the borrow-checker is not quite ready for memory mapped IO but assumes every pointer is allocated on the heap. I just feel worried that one day they will say “okay, we actually need a different compiler for embedded, just like TinyGo for Go”, and I have to relearn. Another thing that I don’t know yet is, it seems not so easy to get them onto the chip? If I understand correctly, some of the nRF and ESP32 are on tier-1 support so I suppose they will be the easier choices to get started. I am interested to know from your experience what was wrong in the equation?

          Thanks and my apologies for making it so long.

        • FizzyOrange@programming.dev
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          24 days ago

          I think embedded Rust is simply really really new, and requires interacting with crusty C tools which is going to reduce reliability.

          It’s also a little fragmented with people trying different things out (e.g. Embassy vs RTIC), and different chips getting different levels of support.

          Totally different experience to desktop development.

      • ZILtoid1991@lemmy.world
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        25 days ago

        I would add to the downside that it’s not the best programming language for game development, etc. There was some blog post about how troublesome is it to develop games using Rust due to some of the features that are good in other areas, like the whole concept of “immutable by default”.

        I can also recommend D, if you want to deal with different issues, like the D Language Foundation fearing of change due to not wanting to deal with division from a new and incompatible version yet again, the GC being both a blessing and curse, if you want to go without a (tracing) GC you’ll need to go with a custom runtime that potentially missing many of its features, the attribute hell, etc.

        • PushButton@lemmy.world
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          25 days ago

          The guy doesn’t know what he is talking about.

          When someone is stating something like “best programming language”, you immediately know he’s fuck all and he’s trying to sell you something…

    • phoneymouse@lemmy.world
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      25 days ago

      Memory safety for one. C is very memory unsafe and that has been the source of a great, great number of software vulnerabilities over the years. Basically, in many C programs it has been possible to force them to execute arbitrary code, and if a program is running with root privileges, an attacker can gain full control over a system by injecting the right input.

      I have very limited knowledge of rust, but from what I remember writing memory unsafe programs is nigh impossible as the code won’t really even compile. Someone else with more knowledge can probably give more detail.

  • nickwitha_k (he/him)@lemmy.sdf.org
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    27 days ago

    If the target for the firmware has stdlib already implemented, my experience has been that it is indeed easy with minimal experience in the language.

    • 0x0@programming.dev
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      27 days ago

      Mixing “firmware” with “easy with minimal experience” in the same sentence makes me cringe…

      • nickwitha_k (he/him)@lemmy.sdf.org
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        27 days ago

        That’s fair. To be clear, I meant minimal experience with the Rust programming language. I’ve mainly tinkered with ESP32 types of MCUs in Arduino and CircuitPython when it comes to firmware, but have much more software experience. In some ways, I found the little bit of Rust that I tried easier because of the tooling - defaulting to a CLI tool to flash rather than an IDE is much more comfortable for me.

        • towerful@programming.dev
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          25 days ago

          I’ve been meaning to play with rust, and I’ve always enjoyed tinkering with various MCUs… Although I’m not very strong with firmware/embedded programming.

          Do you think programming an ESP32 is a good project for learning rust?
          Any suggested place to start? (Tutorials, YouTube Vida etc)

          • nickwitha_k (he/him)@lemmy.sdf.org
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            25 days ago

            Do you think programming an ESP32 is a good project for learning rust?

            I’ve only barely scratched the surface there myself but, I absolutely do think so. For several reasons. First, ESP32 is one of the few series of MCUs that support the Rust stdlib. And learning what that entails for Rust is extremely helpful in conceptualizing build targets. Second, MCUs are a very constrained target for software/firmware. Getting comfortable there will likely improve your code efficiency in other code platforms as you are more likely to think about resource usage earlier. And third, there’s some pretty excellent docs and tutorials.

            Any suggested place to start? (Tutorials, YouTube Vida etc)

            For tutorials, my recommended starting point is with the official docs/books themselves:

      • socsa@piefed.social
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        27 days ago

        Meh, it’s depends on what you do. I know several low level C engineers who would be far more comfortable rolling a fresh driver over doing some more abstract intro CS projects.

  • KomfortablesKissen@discuss.tchncs.de
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    25 days ago

    Okay, Rust does look pretty cool and I am trying to learn it, but this makes me hesitant.

    Also, did they rewrite it themselves or are they making Gemini do it and just didn’t encounter bugs yet?